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Kate Linebaugh: This is The Facebook Files, a series from The Journal. We’re looking deep inside Facebook through its own internal documents. If you haven’t already listened to part one, start there, it’s already in your feet. A quick heads-up, this episode includes some discussion of eating disorders and self-harm. Five years ago when she was 13 years old, Anastasia Vlasova signed up for her first social media account. It wasn’t Facebook.
Anastasia Vlasova: No, I mean, I think Facebook is a little bit for an older demographic.
Kate Linebaugh: No offense taken, it’s okay.
Anastasia Vlasova: Sorry.
Kate Linebaugh: She signed up for Instagram. Instagram which is owned by Facebook has long been popular with teens like Anastasia.
Anastasia Vlasova: I was super excited and I couldn’t wait to post photos with all of those intense Instagram filters that no one really uses nowadays.
Kate Linebaugh: First, she followed her friends then she started following the accounts of fitness influencers, people who post photos and videos of their workouts.
Anastasia Vlasova: The fitness influencers that I follow were all super tan and very toned and a lot of them are smiling in their photos and they just looked like they were living basically the best life possible.
Kate Linebaugh: How did those posts make you feel?
Anastasia Vlasova: Initially I was incredibly inspired by them.
Kate Linebaugh: But by the time she was in eighth grade, Anastasia had noticed that these same influencers had started effecting her in different, more negative ways.
Anastasia Vlasova: I would go onto social media and I would use that as motivation, again, to get me to get back into fitness or go to the gym or eat healthy. But then as I close the app I would feel so awful about myself and I would look in the mirror and I would think, “Oh my gosh, I am nowhere close to the image of these fitness influencers. I need to work out.
Kate Linebaugh: Anastasia developed an eating disorder, and she has a clear idea of what led to it.
Anastasia Vlasova: I realized that Instagram was really triggering a lot of my eating disorder, so that’s when I made the connection between social media and my poor mental health.
Kate Linebaugh: In recent years, Facebook employees have been studying this very issue, Instagram’s effect on the mental health of teens. Internal Facebook documents show the results of their studies and those results suggest that Instagram can have negative effects on many of its millions of young users. One internal document says that for teen girls who’d recently experienced body image issues, Instagram made those feelings worse for one in three of them.
Georgia Wells: Internally, there’s this growing body of evidence that for many teens and in particular teen girls Instagram can be toxic.
Kate Linebaugh: That’s our colleague, Georgia Wells. She says in public Facebook executives have downplayed Instagram’s negative effects. As recently as May, Facebook’s Head of Instagram, Adam Mosseri, told reporters that the effect of the app on teen mental health seems to be “Quite small.” Mosseri didn’t talk about those internal studies that The Wall Street Journal has now revealed.
Georgia Wells: The experience of looking at the documents and seeing this research, it makes me think, why is it private? Should the public know? Should parents know? Should teens themselves know?
Kate Linebaugh: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I’m Kate Linebaugh. This is Part 2 of The Facebook Files. Coming up on the show, an inside look at the mental health research that Facebook has kept private. In 2012, according to the documents The Journal reviewed, Facebook saw teen users in the U.S. decline for the first time ever. That same year Facebook bought Instagram, an app that was hot with teens and under Facebook the app would grow rapidly. Documents show that Facebook would come to see Instagram as its best bet for growth among teens. But at the same time, questions were mounting about the connection between social media apps and rising rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide among teens. And several external studies said there was a link.
Georgia Wells: The documents show that in 2018, Facebook starts really trying to study the effect that Instagram has on mental health. What’s interesting is right at the beginning of one of the early documents on this research, one of the first lines is, “Instagram is coming under increasing scrutiny with relation to mental health problems.” This gives us a pretty good indication that outside pressure is contributing to Facebook’s decision to study these issues itself.
Kate Linebaugh: In an interview with the journal earlier this month, Instagram Head, Adam Mosseri said Facebook’s internal research does suggest that Instagram can exacerbate mental health problems in some users. He said the research also shows that for others, Instagram can have positive effects. He said he believes that, “We more good than bad.” When Facebook started its research a few years ago it did an online survey of 2,500 teens in the U.S. and the UK and also conducted focus groups.
Georgia Wells: They start in on what they call the teen mental health deep dive.
Kate Linebaugh: And what kinds of questions did Facebook’s internal researchers ask?
Georgia Wells: For example, one of the things they looked at was asking teens of a range of different types of feelings. How often did this feeling begin on Instagram? For example, have you ever felt not attractive? How often did that start on Instagram? Or in another example, was the feelings such as suicidal thoughts. They asked teens, “Have you felt suicidal? If you did, did the feeling begin on Instagram?”
Kate Linebaugh: The findings of the study were shared internally with some Facebook employees.
Georgia Wells: This document, it’s a slide deck that the authors uploaded to a message board where Facebook employees share content internally. The first page is the seven key takeaways and then the next slides are filled with charts. For example, among teens who reported suicidal thoughts, 13% of British users and 6% of American users trace the desire to kill themselves to Instagram. And for teens who said they felt alone or lonely, 21% of us teens and 18% of British teens said that that feeling started on Instagram.
Another slide says that Instagram shapes the daily lives and moods of teens. It includes a quote from a U.S. female teen, “I’ve had to stop myself looking at Instagram in the morning because it has so much power to shape how I feel, so I try to give myself the time to set my own day.” And the researchers are clear about this in the documents. Over and over again they report that the teens say that constant comparison on Instagram is contributing to higher levels of anxiety and depression. And the researchers don’t dispute this.
Kate Linebaugh: So they’re accepting that there are higher levels of-
Georgia Wells: Yes.
Kate Linebaugh: … Depression and anxiety among young people that are brought to the surface because of social media and Instagram?
Georgia Wells: Yes, the documents say that social comparison and perfectionism are nothing new, but young people are dealing with this on an unprecedented scale and teens say one reason for that is Instagram.
Kate Linebaugh: Facebook study found that more teen girls than teen boys said Instagram made them feel worse about themselves. Another document from 2019 summarizes findings from Facebook’s research on mental health and it highlights a subset of teen girls who said they’ve experienced body image issues. It includes a statement in bold capital letters.
Georgia Wells: We make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls.
Kate Linebaugh: Wow.
Georgia Wells: Yeah. These are not small effects. And I want to be clear, the research indicates that Instagram’s effects are not harmful for all users. For most teenagers the negative effects appear to be manageable and can be outweighed by the positives like self-expression and connecting with friends. But the research shows there’s this subset of users, in particular teen girls, who can experience these harmful effects from Instagram.
Kate Linebaugh: By sharing the teen mental health deep dive to that internal message board, employees who had access could leave comments, and Georgia was able to review many of them.
Georgia Wells: Overall the initial reaction was thank you for this fascinating work. One comment is, this research is so important and the insights are hugely valuable. So, employees are recognizing the importance of what’s happening here.
Kate Linebaugh: And was there any discussion that, hey, we should give this information to outside researchers, or the government, or the public?
Georgia Wells: Nothing. Nothing.
Kate Linebaugh: Was there a discussion of, oh God, let’s make sure this doesn’t get out.
Georgia Wells: No, not at all. Nothing like that.
Kate Linebaugh: Facebook says there were discussions about releasing its mental health research, but the company decided against it due to confidentiality and privacy concerns. After conducting its teen mental health deep dive, the documents show Facebook’s researchers dug deeper.
Georgia Wells: And so that’s when we see them go from this broader inquiry about can Instagram cause harm? And now they’re looking into the how.
Kate Linebaugh: In March, 2020, Facebook researchers completed what they called, the “Teen girls body image study.” This research was more qualitative. It had less than two dozen participants. Again, researchers found the effect of Instagram on teen mental health was significant, especially related to social comparison.
Georgia Wells: Social comparison is when you start looking at content with that feeling of how do I stack up next to them rather than just consuming this content about someone just for the sake of learning about who that person is.
Kate Linebaugh: In this study, Facebook researchers found that Instagram stood out among social media platforms.
Georgia Wells: Here’s a quote. They say, “Social comparison is worse on Instagram.” And they note that TikTok is grounded in performance which tends to be a funnier interaction. Meanwhile, Snapchat users are sheltered from some of the aspects of social comparison because Snapchat has an emphasis on these face filters that are silly. They tend to be more silly than beautifying and they keep the focus on the face. In contrast, Instagram focuses so heavily on body and lifestyle. But I just keep on coming back to this quote in the presentation, it’s, “Social comparison is worse on Instagram. And that matters because sometimes when you ask Facebook executives about harm, potential harm on their platform and mental health issues the response sometimes is this is an industry-wide problem, but literally in this document is Instagram is worse.
Kate Linebaugh: Facebook’s research on Instagram has continued into this year. In January it finished a huge survey on social comparison with 100,000 participants. Earlier this month Georgia spoke with Instagram Head Adam Mosseri about the internal research.
Georgia Wells: Right upfront, Adam said that Facebook as a company was late to thinking through the downsides of connecting people at scale.
Adam Mosseri: I’ve been pushing very hard for us to embrace our responsibilities more broadly. I think that we relate as a company to think through the downsides of connecting people at scale. I think there’s way more upside than there is downside but I do think there are downsides and we need to embrace that reality and do everything we can to address them as effectively as we can.
Kate Linebaugh: What did Mosseri say about this mental health research?
Georgia Wells: Adam acknowledged the research.
Adam Mosseri: For me this isn’t dirty laundry, I’m actually very proud of the research. I think it’s important work to do.
Kate Linebaugh: Mosseri said that some features of Instagram could be harmful to some young users and he said they’re not easily addressed.
Adam Mosseri: My point is there is no clean-cut solution, there is no silver bullet. These problems all have trade-offs and so what I’m focused on primarily is how can we make space for good people to do foundational research to understand them and make sure that Instagram isn’t exacerbating these problems. Because social comparison, anxiety, these problems aren’t Instagram-specific problems, they’re societal problems. The thing that I really feel strongly about is we need to make sure that we’re not exacerbating those problems.
Speaker 5: Hi everyone. Today we’re going to be doing a fat-burning workout on the…
Anastasia Vlasova: One industry that I really got interested in was the fitness and health industry.
Kate Linebaugh: That’s Anastasia Vlasova again.
Anastasia Vlasova: Their feeds were all super bright.
Speaker 5: And I’m so excited because this recipe is going to be one of my ultimate favorite recipes.
Anastasia Vlasova: And happy, and just for lack of a better term, I had really good vibes.
Speaker 5: The first tropical that I’m making is strawberry, banana, and orange juice, so refreshing.
Anastasia Vlasova: As a 13, 14, whatever year-old, looking at a 20-year-old who is super fit, super beautiful, has a bunch of followers, I really aspired be like them because they portrayed this image of perfection and of happiness.
Kate Linebaugh: Anastasia decided to make her own fitness account. She started posting videos of herself working out and playing tennis.
Anastasia Vlasova: I posted different recipes of healthy meals that I created or just looked up online. I also shared tips and tricks for finding fitness motivation.
Kate Linebaugh: What kind of recipes?
Anastasia Vlasova: Anywhere from super simple recipes like avocado toast to coconut curry or something. I mean, nothing super complex, nothing worthy of Iron Chef, but…
Kate Linebaugh: But how old are you here? You’re posting recipes and healthy living solutions.
Anastasia Vlasova: I was, I think, 13 years old when I started doing all of the fitness Instagram account stuff. So, yeah, super young.
Kate Linebaugh: Anastasia said at first Instagram made her feel empowered and she got noticed. A sportswear company even started sending her free clothes, but Instagram was taking up more and more of her time and energy.
Anastasia Vlasova: Scrolling through and liking every single post in my main feed and commenting and interacting with my audience and posting on stories and taking photos almost every single day or prepping captions and photos a week in advance so that when it gets to next week I can just easily click and post them and upload them. And I remember during school I would take bathroom breaks and when I would go into the stall I would sit down and as I’m doing my business I would go on my phone and I would be on Instagram liking people’s posts, making sure that I didn’t miss a single one from the past hour while I was in class. And then texting my mom and being like, “Hey, can you take me to take more tennis photos this weekend?” And so everything became incredibly Instagram-centric because I was super focused on expanding my account as much as possible.
Kate Linebaugh: And do you remember when you realized that Instagram wasn’t making you feel good anymore?
Anastasia Vlasova: Yeah, I think it was at some point towards the beginning of my eating disorder.
Kate Linebaugh: What are your memories of that time and how it started?
Anastasia Vlasova: Okay. My eating struggles started with some signs of orthorexia, which is extreme clean eating. At first I just started making healthier swaps with the food that I was consuming at the time. So instead of chips I had healthier whole grain crackers, and then it translated into a much more unhealthy relationship because I started to punish myself whenever I ate something that was considered an unhealthy food or fast food.
Kate Linebaugh: Anastasia says she started restricting her eating during the week and then bingeing on the weekends.
Anastasia Vlasova: And I would just go through this endless cycle of doing that. I definitely realized that a lot of the content that was produced by some of my favorite fitness influencers triggered my binges or my restrictive cycles. And I vividly remember this one time when I ate, I think it was a piece of cake or ice cream, just some kind of dessert that isn’t the healthiest for you, but it’s no big deal. And I made my mom take me to the gym around 9:30 or 10:00 PM, just so I could run six miles and burn off what I had just consumed. It was an exhausting cycle.
Kate Linebaugh: When she got to high school, Anastasia says her mental health problems got worse. By her freshman year she began experiencing anxiety attacks, insomnia, and depression. She points out that other things contributed to this besides Instagram. She felt pressure to get good grades, to keep a busy schedule, and says there was family tension. And experts who study the effects of social media on mental health say there are usually multiple factors, from genetics to trauma that contribute to these problems. For Anastasia, her struggles eventually led to thoughts of self-harm.
Anastasia Vlasova: I realized that I had heightened anxiety and also experienced more eating disorder triggers when I was on social media, but I also acknowledge the fact that I probably wouldn’t be deleting social media, so I just accepted it that I was just going to live as this anxious human being with an eating disorder because of social media. And I did feel a little bit hopeless because I was like, “Dang, I really don’t want to continue my life living in so much pain and suffering and self-comparison and a little bit of depression and anxiety and eating disorder, but I also don’t want to give Instagram up.
Kate Linebaugh: Anastasia started having trouble focusing in school. She’d leave class to go see her school counselor. In 11th grade, it all came to a head.
Anastasia Vlasova: I went to my counselor one day and I said, “I’m having suicidal thoughts. I don’t want to be here.” Sorry, I’m tearing up a little bit but it’s just hard to talk about. But…
Kate Linebaugh: Yeah, it’s hard.
Anastasia Vlasova: Yeah. And so I told her I don’t want to be here anymore, I hate myself. I hate how much I have disconnected from my friends and just from who I truly am because of the stupid eating disorder and my depression and my anxiety, and I don’t know what to do.
Kate Linebaugh: While Anastasia was struggling with her mental health issues, the documents show Facebook’s own research connected such struggles to Instagram. But when asked about mental health problems in its products, the company hasn’t shared these findings. This past March, here’s how Facebook CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, answered a question in front of Congress about the effects of social media on kids.
Mark Zuckerberg: Overall, the research that we’ve seen is that using social apps to connect with other people can have positive mental health benefits and wellbeing benefits like helping people feel more connected and less lonely.
Kate Linebaugh: When asked by reporters about mental health effects of Instagram on a call this past May, Instagram Head Mosseri did not mention the company’s internal findings. Instead, he cited outside research that was more favorable to Instagram.
Adam Mosseri: It’s facts stated the bi-directional, so small effects, positive and small effects negative but it’s quite small.
Kate Linebaugh: Earlier this month, Mosseri told Georgia that he didn’t want to diminish these issues, and, “Some of the issues mentioned in this story aren’t necessarily widespread, but their impact on people may be huge.”
Georgia Wells: For years when asked about the topic Facebook executives have minimized or deflected or said the effects were quite small. Meanwhile, many other team girls I’ve spoken with said they had experiences that were really, really hard that they believe were exacerbated by Instagram. Reading these lines, 32% of teen girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies Instagram made them feel worse. And another one, comparisons on Instagram can change how young women view and describe themselves. I know who that’s talking about. That’s talking about some of the teens I’ve been talking to over the past few months, and they’ve been saying this and articulating it clearly, yet Facebook and its top executives have never publicly said that their own in-house research backs up what these teen girls are saying.
Kate Linebaugh: The documents Georgia reviewed also showed something else. There was an effort from inside the company to push for changes to Instagram. Some of these employees ideas went all the way to Mark Zuckerberg. That’s after the break. Documents show that over the past few years Facebook employees haven’t only been studying the mental health effects of Instagram, they’ve also been suggesting possible changes that could reduce the app’s harmful effects. Facebook’s team of internal researchers recommended that Instagram expand its tools that encourage users to take breaks, that the app offer more fun filters that are not beautifying and that the apps show less fashion and celebrity content. Those recommendations haven’t gotten much traction but there’s one idea that did, giving users the option to remove like counts from Instagram posts.
Georgia Wells: And the reason for this is that Facebook heard from teens over and over again that the number of likes they received on an image could become a proxy for how they felt about themselves. And Facebook starts experimenting with ways that they could remove that like count so that there’s not this quantifiable tool that teens can use to compare themselves to others.
Kate Linebaugh: According to the documents, by 2019, Instagram was working on an experiment to help improve mental health by hiding like counts on posts. The experiment was called Project Daisy.
Georgia Wells: Project Daisy, this is where we’re seeing an effort from Instagram to make the platform less toxic and a happier place for teens.
Kate Linebaugh: Before deciding whether or not to push out this change to the whole platform, Instagram tested the hypothesis with a subset of users to see whether hiding the like count would benefit mental health.
Georgia Wells: With these users they remove the like counts to try to see if it affects their happiness, and then the data starts rolling in and they find that when they looked at user self-reported well-being the numbers didn’t really budge.
Kate Linebaugh: That finding that the numbers didn’t budge suggested that Project Daisy wouldn’t work to improve mental health, but it wouldn’t hurt either. And Facebook was still considering a broader rollout. Early last year, employees worked on a presentation about the project for Zuckerberg. Georgia has been able to review the presentation including who was working on it ahead of that meeting.
Georgia Wells: The who’s who of the important characters at this company. There’s Adam Mosseri, there’s Fidji Simo, the former Head of Facebook’s app. There’s John Hagerman, Facebook’s Head of Newsfeed.
Kate Linebaugh: In the presentation for Zuckerberg they recommended that Instagram go ahead with Project Daisy, giving users the option to hide like counts.
Georgia Wells: A draft of the presentation before it was brought to Zuckerberg had said, “A Daisy launch should be received by press and parents as a strong, positive indication that Instagram cares about its users. So Facebook is finding internally that this change doesn’t have a statistically significant effect on wellbeing, yet their recommendation is, “We suggest nonetheless, Instagram proceed with this change because of the optics, because it will be received by the press and parents as a good thing.”
Kate Linebaugh: The documents don’t show how Zuckerberg reacted to the presentation. When Facebook rolled out Project Daisy in May, Mosseri said publicly that the feature didn’t actually change much about how users felt. Mosseri told Georgia earlier this month that Instagram is looking at other changes, including a tool that would nudge certain users toward more positive content. It’s also testing a way to ask users if they want to take a break. But Mosseri pointed out that fixes are not simple and “You can make things worse unintentionally.”
This year, there have been growing calls, including from lawmakers for Facebook to do more to protect teens and for the company to share its own research into teen mental health. Representative, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Republican from Washington pressed Zuckerberg specifically about the company’s research in that congressional hearing in March.
Cathy McMorris Rodgers: Has Facebook conducted any internal research as to the effect your products are having on the mental health of our children?
Mark Zuckerberg: Congresswoman, I know that this is something that we try to study and-
Cathy McMorris Rodgers: Can’t you say yes or no? I’m sorry.
Mark Zuckerberg: I believe the answer is yes.
Kate Linebaugh: After that hearing, McMorris Rodgers and three other lawmakers requested that research. McMorris Rogers said Facebook declined to share it. Last month, senators Marsha Blackburn and Richard Blumenthal publicly called on the company to share its research. Facebook again declined.
Georgia Wells: Facebook replied to the senators with a letter. It was a six-page letter. Facebook said there are many challenges with conducting research in this space, and Facebook also said, “We are not aware of a consensus among studies or experts about how much screen time is too much.” The senators had asked Facebook more broadly about research as well but this is how they chose to answer. Facebook also told the senators that it’s internal research is “Proprietary” and “Kept confidential to promote frank and open dialogue and brainstorming internally.”
Kate Linebaugh: U.S. lawmakers aren’t the only ones who want the research, so do outside experts who study teen mental health. One of those researchers is, Jean Twenge, a Psychology Professor at San Diego State University who has long studied the effects of technology on adolescents.
Jean Twenge: I think they have an obligation to the public to let everyone know what they found. Here’s the thing, there’s a lot of things that cause depression starting with genetic predisposition, trauma, abuse, discrimination, poverty, those tend to be either things we can’t change with current technology like genetics, were big issues, things that are really hard to solve. But if some depression in, let’s say teen girls in particular, is linked to social media use, is caused by social media use, then there might be something we can do about it. It’s something we can solve. So, it’d be really powerful if we had better data in this area. It’s not a perfect analogy, but think about cigarettes, yeah, indeed the tobacco companies have a responsibility to the public to tell people that their product was linked or could cause lung cancer, if they had internal data showing that, should that have been released? I think most people would say yes.
Kate Linebaugh: During his interview with Georgia earlier this month, Mosseri said that going forward Facebook should figure out a way to share internal research.
Adam Mosseri: I think people should be aware of what research says, whether it’s positive or negative about us. No one’s trying to hide anything here.
Kate Linebaugh: Mosseri said the challenge is in protecting the studies participants, but that the company is looking at ways to do that. He also said…
Adam Mosseri: I think the most realistic thing we can do because the internet by the way is not going away, we can’t go back to 1960. There’s going to be social media, people are going to be able to connect at scale. The most important thing we can do is embrace that responsibility and invest in trying to come up with ways of helping people in mitigating that. And I think that the Facebook company has invested more in safety and an integrity and in these issues more broadly than any other company on earth at this point. And so I’m not saying that there aren’t problems, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be further along than we are, I think we should just use before we did that publicly many times before. But I’m also very proud of the progress and I think that we can’t go back so we have to figure out how to move forward and do so in a responsible way.
Kate Linebaugh: After expressing fears of suicidal thoughts to her school counselor, Anastasia continued to have trouble.
Anastasia Vlasova: And so, a month went by where I just continued to struggling so much. There’s this one day where I had a really bad anxiety attack in class and I went to the bathroom just sobbing. My mom picks me up and I just couldn’t speak and I was just so disassociated from everything that she was like, “Okay, we’re going to take you to a therapist.” And so I started therapy regularly in March of last year, so March of 2020, and that I want to say is when my true healing began because I was finally able to receive professional help. And we did a lot of inner child work and just acknowledgement of a lot of trauma that I had experienced.
Kate Linebaugh: And then Anastasia made a decision about Instagram. And so what did you decide to do?
Anastasia Vlasova: I deleted it.
Kate Linebaugh: And when you finally decided to delete it for good, do you remember what you did after that?
Anastasia Vlasova: I celebrated. Now, I mean, I didn’t actually realize I was deleting it permanently until four months went by without me using Instagram and I was like, “I really don’t want to go back.” The pros no longer outweigh the cons of using social media and I feel so awesome. And so I guess what I did after it was finally start living my life. I’m more laid back I feel than when I had Instagram.
Kate Linebaugh: Before we go, we wanted to share a few mental health resources. The National Eating Disorders Association has a helpline at 1-800-931-2237. If you’re considering self-harm, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-TALK. That’s 1-800-273-8255.
Tomorrow, The Journal’s daily news show will be back and The Facebook Files Will return on Saturday. This series is part of The Journal Podcast, a co-production of Gimlet and The Wall Street Journal. Thanks to Jeff Horwitz and Deepa Seetharama for their reporting in this episode. Your hosts are Ryan Knutson and me, Kate Linebaugh. The series was produced by Pia Gadkari, Max Green and Martin Kessler, with production help from Enrique Perez de la Rosa. This episode was edited by Katherine Brewer, Gerard Cole, and Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Beth Blackshaw, Colin Campbell, Anthony Galloway, Lydia Polgreen, Brad Reagan, Matthew Rose, and Rob Rossi. Our engineer is Griffin Tanner.
Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode from Peter Leonard, Blue Dot Sessions, and Audio Network. Fact-checking by Nicole Pazulka. Also thanks to the whole Journal team, Priscilla Alabi, Sam Bair, Annie Minoff, Laura Morris, Aleef Nessouli, Rikki Novetsky, Sarah Platt, Willa Rubin, Matthew Sherman, Matthew Shilts, and Nathan Singhapok. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.